BIO: Oliver W. Colbert is a speaker, spoken word artist, and experienced higher education administrator with a focus on diversity, equity, inclusion, and true anti-racism work. He's devoted to challenging traditions that have been adopted as cultural policies in spaces of education and employment.
*His thoughts and beliefs are not reflective of those of his employer.
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliverwcolbert/

Transcript:

Andrea G. Tatum: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host and DEI Career Coach, Andrea G. Tatum. If this is your first time tuning in, you are in for a treat. I think this may be one of my favorite conversations to date. I got to sit down with my friend Oliver W. Colbert. He's currently the Associate Director of Admissions and Diversity Initiatives for a law school in New York, but he is so much more than that. He's also a speaker, spoken word artist, and experienced higher education administrator with a focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion and true anti-racism work.

We talked about so much, from how he's challenging traditions that have been adopted as cultural policies in spaces like education and employment. We talked about how “authentic is the new professional,” and he gives some really great advice for aspiring diversity, equity, and inclusion professionals. I know this is one of the longer episodes, but trust me, you're going to want to listen all the way to the end, because he never stops dropping gems until we had to just stop. It was so good. So let's get right into it because I think you're going to find Oliver's DEI career journey incredibly fascinating. Now, don't forget to subscribe and hit the bell so you don't miss out on upcoming episodes.

Andrea G. Tatum: I am so excited to speak with my friend Oliver today. Oliver, thank you so much for being here and joining me on this episode of DEI Career Conversations. I want to start by hearing about you. Tell me your story and your journey into what you're doing now.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. Thank you for having me here. Yeah. I'm excited for this conversation. I started my background– my career path is currently in higher education. I kind of had a roundabout way into higher ed. Most people who work in higher ed, it wasn't their end goal when they started out in college or when they started picking career paths. So, for me, I'll take it all the way back to high school. I originally went to James Madison High School. I'm from Brooklyn, New York, went to James Madison High School. I got into some trouble there. I ended up being kicked out of that school, and then I went on to Satellite Academy, which is an alternative school, and they have a few sites in New York City, one of which, the one I went to, was on Forsyth Street in the Lower East Side.

And from there, that was really where I found my academic stride. I usually struggled in school, not really with the coursework, but more with the social aspect of it. I got bullied a lot. And then Satellite is where I found my space, my people. And I like to talk about Satellite Academy when I talk about my journey, simply because how they did education in that space was so different and so unique for me. So we had what was called family groups. And so, our family groups were kind of like homeroom. And instead of coming into homeroom, how you would do in a traditional high school where you sit there for the beginning of the day and then you go off to class, you joke around with your friends, homeroom, family group was more so, you talk about like, "Hey, how's it going? How are you feeling today? What's your energy like? Are you ready for today? What classes do you have?"

And we had our family group leader, Everton— Shout out to Everton. He would guide us through these questions, just about being aware, wellness, and things. We sat in a circle. Classes were more free-form and conversational-based. They weren't test-based. To graduate, you had to do what was called PBAs or presentation-based assessments, and that's really where I found my stride in public speaking and things like that there.

So just how they did... We called our teachers by their first names. We got to leave the building for lunch and come back. And so, that way of doing education was the first time I ever felt trusted with my own education and have autonomy over, to some extent, in that educational experience. And it was also the first time I actually believed in myself that I can go to college, because prior to that, college was never really a goal of mine, until I got accepted to college through Satellite and I got accepted to two colleges, Buffalo State and Delaware State University. Ended up going to Buffalo State, majored in several majors before I found my major that I was successful with.

Andrea G. Tatum: Let's talk about it. What were those majors? What were the "I thought about it, and that just didn't work out"?

Oliver W. Colbert: I bounced around so much [audible laughing]. Because of some childhood experiences, I wanted to do social work, because of some things that I went through as a child. It was my way of wanting to give back. In my head, in my 17-year-old, 18-year-old head, I was like, "Yo, this is going to be the way I do it." And then I started taking classes in there and I was just like, "Nah, this is not for me," and then I started looking at outcomes in terms of salaries for social workers, and I was like, "You really, really got to love this because most social workers, they don't get paid that much."

So then I was like, "All right. What else can I do?" So then I switched to psychology, and I was like, "Okay. I could be a psychologist." And psychology classes and me were just not clicking, so it was just like, I was getting Cs and I'm like, "Maybe this isn't my thing either." And then I went to criminal justice and I'm like, "This is too intense for me." I was like, I don't want to talk about crimes or deal with prosecuting or defense work or anything like that.

And then what actually changed... I was confused for a long period of time, as you could tell, about how many majors I switched to. And then what changed for me was Spike Lee. He came to do a talk at Buffalo State, and one of the things that he said... He was answering a question that was asked to him by an audience member. I forget the young man's name who asked him the question, but him and I are still connected on LinkedIn. And I posted about this a few weeks ago and he's like, "I was the student who asked that question." But he asked the question about careers and how to know, how do you know what you want to do. Spike Lee knew he wanted to do movies and direct. Right.

Spike Lee said, "When it doesn't feel like work, when it just clicks for you, you enjoy doing it. You enjoy the challenge of it." And for me, that's always been writing. I love to write essays. I love to write poetry. And so, when he said that, I was like, "All right. What can I major in that can fit that passion?" Writing and asking questions and things like that. I love conversations. And so, that's when I switched over to journalism. And from there, my GPA went up. I enjoyed every element of that, having challenging conversations, doing interviews, writing articles, learning how to be concise with words.

And so, I did journalism for undergrad and then ended up getting an internship at CBS Sports, and then I was like, "Maybe I don't want to do sports journalism." So I did a little hip-hop journalism for a little bit, just freelance writing for HotNewHipHop. And then I was like, "You know what? I really enjoyed my experience at Buffalo State, how I developed leadership skills. When I pledged my fraternity, it was a part of all these organizations, and had these leadership positions." And I noticed that my life literally changed in college. That college experience changed me from what, – from an introvert who used to get bullied a lot and not really have too much confidence in himself to stepping into who I am or the beginning parts of who I am today. And a lot of that, I attribute to the experience at Buffalo State. And so, having that in my mind, I was like, "I can always write." I was like, "I want to do higher education and pass that on for students and be a resource for students." And so, I studied higher education at Stony Brook University, and I was a student, grad assistant at Baruch, then I got my first full-time position at Harlem Children's Zone as a college advisor. Then from there, I went on to School of Visual Arts, the School of Visual Arts, and I served in student life over there, then I went to The New School at Eugene Lang College of Liberal Arts, and then went to Parsons, which is, they're both in The New School, one is a liberal arts school and one is Parsons, the art school.

And there, I did the Higher Education Opportunity Program, and I was an academic/career advisor. And then from there, I moved to North Carolina, and that's when I first got my first position in law school admissions, and that's the field I'm in now. And I was working at University of North Carolina School of Law. And then when I was doing admissions work, I realized there was an opportunity to do specifically some diversity work in the office. And my position wasn't dedicated to that, but I just asked my supervisor, who was super dope, and I was just like, "Hey, you mind if I host this session?"

It was like an open house, strictly an info session for Black students, because I'm noticing the experience to apply to college, and specifically to apply to law school, is much different for Black students than it is for other students, and I caught onto that quickly. And now, I'm doing diversity work for another law school based here in New York City, which I'm excited about. Yeah. So that's a long-winded journey to where I'm at now.

Andrea G. Tatum: I love your story so much because I often tell people, and I'm sure you've got some variation of this, of like, careers are not linear. You're not just going in this one straight path. You're not just climbing straight up this ladder. I often tell people, "Careers are way more like rock walls." You got to go over here, find your fitting, go over here. You might have to take a step down to work your way up. And I love that you talked about all the different ways that you had to find your path, to find the thing that you loved, and that you were looking for the thing that you were passionate about until you found it, and I think that is a beautiful story.

Oliver W. Colbert: Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. So as someone who has been a career advisor, a lot of the people who are tuning in and listening are on their career journey thinking about pivoting or getting a career started in diversity, equity, and inclusion. What advice would you give to someone who is kind of thinking about it but not quite sure if they have the skills or the experience to get into this field?

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. I can say, for higher education, diversity work within higher education, from my experience, I would say the best advice I can give is to understand the landscape. I think higher education is a very... Unlike many institutions or many systems, it's very traditional. And so, you may come in with a certain perspective about how diversity outcomes or DEI outcomes can be reached and you'll run into a lot of roadblocks that are just there, policies that are just traditions that really have no other value than, "This is just what we've been doing." Right?

And so, I would just say, understanding the landscape and being prepared to persevere. I hate using the term "have grit" or anything. I don't like using that, but it's more so having patience and understanding that there's an element of wisdom and patience that comes with doing DEI work. But the basic advice I would give is, try to understand the landscape that you want to enter in when you talk about DEI work.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. I think that's great advice, and I think it resonates, higher ed, corporate. My least favorite phrase in the working world is, "Well, that's the way we've always done it."

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: I think that it is the enemy of innovation, creativity, and progress, because when you've always done it that way, well, guess what, we got a lot of problems. And if we keep doing it that way, they're not getting fixed. But I love that you talked about the patience and the grit, because it is challenging work having to bring people along on this journey.

So in the role that you're in now as the associate director of diversity recruiting, what are some of those challenges that maybe you have faced, and what is something that maybe you're really proud of that you were able to overcome in that space?

Yeah. Well, the official title is Associate Director of Admissions and Diversity Initiatives, right? And so, when I applied for the position, I was like, "Oh, this is great." I looked at the description and everything. I was like, "This is great." Then it was right off the heels of everything that was happening in the summer of 2020. I'm sure you noticed, right? All these positions started popping up of like, "We need a diversity person for here. We need a diversity person for here."

Andrea G. Tatum: Yup.

Oliver W. Colbert: And so, when I got to the position, I kind of thought, "Oh, I was going to have..." like, once I understand the space and stuff, I was going to have a lot more autonomy to do things, to make things happen, and so on and so forth. And one of the things that I ran into was them still figuring out the position as I'm in it, like what roles, what responsibilities. They just knew they needed somebody for this, and it was more so... And this is not me making this up. This is actually somebody in HR who explained this to me. And so, figuring it out as they're, trying to fly the plane as they're building it just with this particular position.

And so, that was one challenge coming in. And then now, being in it for a year and some change now, close to two years, I would say that one of the challenges is, like what we talked about earlier, like, "This is how it's always been done." And specifically in diversity and doing diversity recruitment at law schools, one thing that I talk about all the time is the standardized test requirement. Right? We all know the LSAT and GREs, SATs, these standardized tests that we, at higher education... They're coveted. They just love standardized testing as this way to show academic merit or academic strength or aptitude or whatever in students, particularly in law school.

So the Law School Admissions Test has been around for years, and the ABA requires law schools to have a valid and reliable test score. They require law schools to require a valid or reliable test score for admissions. Right? And for years, the LSAT has been the standard, which is administered by the Law School Admissions Council. And so, when I started in the position, again, when we talk about understanding the landscape, the first thing I did was start looking up barriers. What are the barriers here that I'm going to be encountering when I talk to students? Right? Because I'm one-on-one with prospective students.

And so, the first thing was the test score. I saw that Black students... And this is not a new thing, but students who are underrepresented racially or who come from low-income backgrounds traditionally don't score well on standardized testing as students who have access to other resources or who have family members who've been to law school, so on and so forth, who have generations of people they can tap for their experience. Right?

So the average LSAT score was at 142 when I started in my position for Black test-takers, and the median LSAT to get into the law school I work at now was 161, I think, to start. And the median isn't a minimum, right? So there are students who get in above and below that median, but the median puts you in a competitive position. Right? So a 142 is admissible in some law schools, but usually, when they talk about rankings or competitive law schools, the 142s typically aren't the higher-ranking law schools or whatever.

So knowing that, I was just asking a lot of questions about, why do we need this? Why do we have this? Why is nobody talking about this? And then you do research and you find a lot of people are talking about it, but it's a part of that traditional system of how we did things. Right? It's hard to rethink it. Not only is it only tradition, but there's also an economic aspect to it. A colleague of mine, he gave me some great advice, and he said, "Whenever you see something frustrating, follow the money. Follow the money. You'll get to the root of what's going on there."

And LSAT obviously is something that you have to pay for. Every administration that you want to take, you have to pay for it, unless you get a waiver, and you can only get a certain amount of waivers. You can only take it in a certain amount of time. And then to have your score reported to schools, you have to pay what's called a CAS report fee. So you have to pay, I think it's like $95 per report, and you have to have one report per school. Right? So if you're applying to seven law schools, that's $95 times seven, plus your LSAT score, and plus the application fee if the law school carries the application fee. Right?

Andrea G. Tatum: That's wild. That's wild. I'm a professional and I'm sitting here doing the math, and I'm like, "That adds up real fast."

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. And so, you plan out. And not to mention, once you get into law school, law school is like thousands-

Andrea G. Tatum: Expensive.

Oliver W. Colbert: ... you're going to get hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt potentially if you don't get a scholarship or whatever. So trying to just fight against and make known that, yo, this is an obvious thing that is barring certain students from having access to legal education, and it's not fair. Right? And so, that was one of the things, the challenges, that I faced and I continue to face. And one of the most frustrating things I'll say about that is talking to people who've been in the industry for longer than I have who see it, who recognize it, and who are just like, "It's just the way it is." It's like, "I know it sucks. I know it feeds into a system that just is not conducive to inclusivity or equity." But it's just like, "What can we do?"

And it's just like... I'm like, "Bruh." I can't even tell you how many times we’ve had this conversation. I literally was at a conference and the guy who does the statistics for the LSAT, for this test, he was on a panel, and I got to ask a question to say like, "Yo, this isn't a fair test. We know standardized testing isn't fair, but why do we have this?" And he pointed me toward... He gave me the cookie-cutter answer, the canned answer about like, "We have resources on our website, free resources for students to study with." Obviously, self-study is not the best way to approach a test for a lot of students. They need a tutor, and tutors cost thousands of dollars.

So after he got off, I saw him walking up the panel, so I tried to catch up to him and talk to him a little bit more. I'm like, "Yo, come here, come here. Let me ask you again." And so, we had a conversation and he was kind of like the same way. He was just like, "This is just the way it is." And he's like, "I know the SAT and all these standardized testing isn't fair for everybody, but we try to provide as much resources as we can." And I'm just like, "Wow, even the people who are a part of constructing the test acknowledge it, and they see that it's not fair for a lot of people, but it's just the way things are."

So that's the challenging part. And then the most, I would say, fulfilling and, I guess, gratifying and satisfying moments of being in law school admissions is after. When you get the students, when you help the students, I see students progress from prospect students to now the students who I've been talking to before they were even in law school, are now becoming 2Ls, which is the second year of law school. And they come by the office and they're coming in, "Oh my God, I can't wait to tell you about this class," or they get the internships and we have a connection.

And so, just seeing them progress in their lives and knowing I was able to be just a part of helping them get into the law school or just helping them navigate that admissions process, that's the most, I guess, gratifying and satisfying part for me, just being a part of that. And you get little thank-you notes sometimes, like Post-its. Things like that are just everything.

Andrea G. Tatum: I mean, you are literally changing people's lives. I mean, at the end of the day, you talked about access and fairness. And when there's that lack of equitable opportunity, lack of access, then there are people who are not getting into these programs. They are not people who are out here being like, "Yeah. I'ma be a lawyer." Right? Then they're going to choose some other path.

But I think about the ripple effect. I kind of get chills thinking about the ripple effect that exists inside of seeing more Black students, students of color, have access, get into a law program, become lawyers, and then what they can change once they are also a part of this legal system that we all know also has its issues, and how can that change the world, which is, ultimately, when people ask me what is the future of this work, I think it's going to be all of that ripple effect. You get more people in there who are going to also fight for change because someone fought for them.

Oliver W. Colbert: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the hope, right? I mean, I don't even think consciously about that. Right? It's just like, for me, when I think back to people who advocated or who opened the door or who just supported me... And I don't see my role or my position as somebody who's providing opportunity or providing access. I support these students. A lot of these students... And what I don't like when people do in admissions, it's like, "Oh, I gave you this."

You know what, I feel like—I didn't give students anything. They put their application together. They studied for the test. I only helped them throughout the process if they had questions, and was just somebody who I... I try to be as supportive and as reasonable and as understanding as possible throughout the process. And I think a lot of people who are in gatekeeper roles, they kind of feel like, "I opened the door for you." And so, I like to tell students that they earned it. It's theirs, right?

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely.

Oliver W. Colbert: There should have never been a barrier around it, but you made it over it. But again, I don't think about that full-circle moment, although it is a part of that. Once they get up and they're fully in their careers, hopefully they think about the experience with the people who supported them throughout their ways, and they're like, "I want to give that back." And not only that, for me, the people who supported me throughout college and just spoke life into me put me in a position where I feel confident to work in careers or in positions that I didn't feel confident prior to. Right?

And as a ripple effect of that, is that can change the life of people's families. Right? When people make more and they're in certain positions, you can change your family's reality. You can change their situation. And I think that that's another often thing that we forget. The more you support, the higher this person or the further this person climbs up in their career, not only do they speak life into other people and they could help other people, but they're actually first-generation people to make five figures or six figures.

Andrea G. Tatum: Mm-hmm.

Oliver W. Colbert: Nobody in their family has ever done that before, which means they can change a lot of stuff for their family, and which I think is amazing and truly a blessing.

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely. I mean, I am here for the generational wealth-building. I am here for it. I want to see that. So I love it. Man, I love talking to you so much. This is so good. But I want to talk about something that you mentioned earlier on as you were talking about your journey and talked about getting into journalism. You talked about your love of writing.

Oliver W. Colbert: Mm-hmm.

Andrea G. Tatum: And so, I know that in addition to what you do full-time at the university, that you also have your own thing going on as a speaker, as a spoken word artist. So tell me a little bit about the work that you do as Oliver and not just “working for the man.” [audible laughter]

Oliver W. Colbert: Sure. Sure. Yeah. They kind of bleed into each other a little bit, but the work I do as Oliver, I... In 2016, I started facilitating this workshop. Well, I take it back, before 2016. So when I was in college, I discovered my love for performing spoken word poetry. I used to write a lot of poems and raps or whatever growing up, and it was mostly raps or what I thought were raps. I'm probably not that good of a rapper either, so I gave up the rap dreams pretty early, but I loved the art of writing. Right? And so, poetry stayed something that I continued doing throughout college. And then when I performed my first piece, I believe it was back in 2012 at Buffalo State, it was just like, a light just went off in my head where it's just like, this is how... I felt almost this is the way that I connect with people, connect with a higher being. I really felt like this is how I pray, almost. It was like a prayer for me, how I wrote and how I perform. There was something divine about it, just a connection that I had. And I'm not saying, to say I was divinely talented, but it was more of like, I felt the divine connection when I engaged in the craft of writing and performing. And so, poetry started there. And then in 2016, when I was finishing up my grad program, one of my mentors, Eric Jackson, shout out to Eric, he hit me up. He was working out in Maryland and he was like, "Hey, do you mind coming out to my school and doing a workshop for some of my students?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "What workshop? I don't have a workshop. What are you talking about?"

He was like, "You write poetry?" He was like, "Come up with something where you could connect what you write about or the reason why you write and put it into a session, see if you could build out a session for it." So basically, what he was doing was like, "I see somebody who's talented. I'm trying to set him up with an opportunity to expand his talent, to expose him to a new way to deliver his talent, and challenge him in a way to stretch what he's used to, what he's used to doing." So I'm always thankful to Eric for that, and I know, even right now, we haven't spoken in a little bit, but I know I could hit him up right now and he'll still give me wise words of advice.

So I did it. I created what's called “Values Are Dope”. That was the first variation of “Values Are Dope”. And what it was designed to do or what it is designed to do is to use poetry to have students connect with their core values. Right? What are their core values? And this is something that I do with college students, but I also have done it with high school students, middle school students, and even with professionals, where I just feel like we rarely evaluate what our core values are. We think we know them, but when you actually put them out and list them out, it's usually... When I get engaged in activities and stuff like that, usually people discover new ones or they discover that the ones that they thought were top on their list may not be as high as they thought. And so, Values Are Dope is this workshop. It's usually a 90-minute session that I do with students.

And so, after they've discovered their values, then we write some poetry or we perform. And so, 2016 is when that public speaking element started for me. And then from there, I just continued to post content, whether it was about poetry or about other things, and people would invite me to come talk about certain subjects. And then, usually, it's always like, "Hey, do you mind performing this performance in poetry as well?" And so, that's really... A lot of my stuff, my content, is always around the Black experience. Specifically, I try to make sure I’m talking about, from my personal experience, because I really... I think that I have to be very careful, because sometimes when I speak at speaking engagements, people assume that you know everything about everything, and I don't want to ever speak about things I don't know about. Right?

So when I talk about the Black male experience, I'm talking about my experience as a Black male growing up in Flatbush, Brooklyn, and I try not to make sweeping statements or anything like that about that stuff. Yeah. So I do speaking engagements, poetry performances, and et cetera, et cetera. Now, it's been more so on the diversity side of things, and I'm more into talking about, what is diversity? What do we mean when we say diversity? And more so, the language around diversity is what I'm really getting into now. I actually have a speaking engagement on the 8th of June, next Wednesday, where I'm talking about the language around diversity. Yeah. I hope that answers the question.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah.  I mean, and how do you balance all of that?

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: Right? Because I think a lot of people who tune in are like, "Okay." And they're in this world where they're debating like, "Do I want to do DEI work in a corporate setting, or is there more value to doing my own thing, or do I continue to work in the field that I'm in and then do things like speaking engagements?" So how did you decide to be able to do both?

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. It's a true balancing act. So I'm thankful that a lot of the stuff, opportunities that have come to me for speaking, they're mostly blessings. Right? It's like a message on LinkedIn or somebody sees my email or somebody happens to stumble across my website or any of my content on my social medias and they're like, "Hey, we’re having this event coming up. Are you interested?" or it's somebody who I knew, who knows me through somebody else or who heard about it through somebody else.

And so, balancing it is just making sure that I have time for it, I have the capacity for it, checking my work-work schedule. And there was a point in time where I tried to go all-in in the speaking thing, and I'm like, "I want to go full-time speaking, speaking, speaking." And what I discovered about myself is, the back end of that, the marketing, the having to create your own content, to tracking bookings, and making sure that you know who the stakeholders are, who are the decision-makers who will make decisions to bring you into the school. What are you talking about? Do you ever get tired of talking about this? What group do you want to do?

Andrea G. Tatum: That's real.

Oliver W. Colbert: Who's your target audience? And I just knew, I was like, "Maybe this is not for me," the full-time entrepreneur, speaker, the energy that I want to give, because a part of it made me feel like it would become more like manufacturing of these talks, and I never wanted to get like that because, again, speaking and performance has always been this connection that I feel like I have with people, and I never want to take it for something that I'm just like, commercialized in a way, like, "oh, that's Oliver, the speaker. Yeah!" I don't ever want it to be like that.

I always want to have a sense of boots on the ground, still doing some work in an educational space, community space, while balancing... Maybe I'll take a few speaking engagements here and there throughout the year, but I make sure it's manageable. So sometimes, I do turn down opportunities just because, whether it's not the right fit or I'm traveling for work and it just doesn't make sense. But I think everybody should just find out what's best for them. And whoever is thinking about that entrepreneur route, just prepare for work. It is work. You are doing work for yourself. It is good work. And if the goal is for you to work for yourself, then don't be scared of the work. Just embrace it. Embrace the challenge of it. But when I tried it, I was like, "Oh, okay. This is not for me. All right, cool."

Andrea G. Tatum: It is not for everyone. Speaking as a solopreneur who does full-time consulting, coaching, speaking, everything you just said is spot on. You don't get to simply be in that world. And I think that really resonates, not only from the perspective of becoming an entrepreneur, but also, I really want to highlight that I would take that into the same consideration of, if you've been doing DEI work off the side of your desk and volunteering versus deciding to jump into the world of doing the work full-time, knowing your values, understanding what you can and cannot tolerate, and what you want to actually be doing day in and day out is actually really important, because it changes.

You mentioned earlier that... You were like, "Can I do this one event? Can I do this one thing?" There's this opportunity, and that fills your soul. It feels so good to do that one thing. You know you're making a little impact. But it changes the moment that that is your job. And I don't know that people really sit and grapple with, how does that change you? Because, and I want to talk about this, how do you get to show up as a person of color, as a man, as all these things you just talked about in your speaking?

But that's how you got to show up in this very corporate world, and the fight to do it in a corporate sense when you've got all of these parameters and “how we've been doing it,” it feels real different than doing that one-off work or doing that speaking thing where you walked in, you walk right back out the door, and the stakes are kind of low.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's so true. It's so crazy, because when I first started doing opportunities, I was like, "All right, cool." It was almost an impulsive decision to kind of like, "I want to do this full-time," because you get that feeling where it's just like, "Ah, yeah. I love it. I love it. That was amazing." I did one talk at the U.S. Department of Education in D.C. It was for a Scholastic Writers awards ceremony. And so, I went there, I told my story, and it was a whole bunch of high school kids who were writers, who were poets, and then I performed. And after, I was shaking hands, talking to people. And I went back into my hotel and I called my friend and I'm like, "Yo, I know I want to do this for the rest of my life. This is what I was born to do. Oh my God."

And then you step into, like you said, that solopreneur, entrepreneur thing and you're like, "It is now, it is a job. It's a job." And so, when you decide to work for yourself, you decide to work for yourself. I don't want to say it takes away the magic of it. It doesn't take away the magic of it, but it does expose the real work that a lot of solopreneurs and entrepreneurs have to endure to capture the life that they want to capture.

And so, when you get wrapped up in that one-off experience, it's important to think long-term and evaluate yourself, "Is this something I want to do?" But I mean, the freeing part about it is, when you go to do these speaking engagements, at least for me, it was like, I can say what I think and what I feel and I'm not restricted by this overarching company or institution that I'm representing, and I could be an individual.

Andrea G. Tatum: You can be... And I know it's going to sound cliché, but you know where I'm going with this, but you really do get to be the most authentic version of yourself, because you're not having to “fit” into someone else's expectations of what they think the work of DEI is supposed to be.

Oliver W. Colbert: Absolutely.

Andrea G. Tatum: So how do you manage that? How do you manage, in your corporate day-in and day-out job, that balance too, of like, how do you get to show up as the most authentic version of yourself, and how do you advocate that for other people as well?

Oliver W. Colbert: It's a daily challenge. I mean, I remember back early in my career, I had a few positions where I just felt very insecure about who I was in my professional aspect because I felt like I was betraying myself. So I was just like, I went to work with like, thinking 10 different things before I said it. If you asked me something, I'm like, "What am I going to say?" And then after I said it, I'm like, "Did I say that right? Am I correct? What are they thinking? I'm crazy? There's something they must be thinking."

And so, it was so limiting, self-limiting, that I felt like I was oozing out awkward and uncomfortableness. So other people, they're just like, "This is weird." And so, where I am now, I got to a point in my career where I was just like, "I'm going to walk into this space….” It's a promise I feel like I made to myself. “I'm going to walk into this space, and my priority is going to be, be true to who I am.” And that was a challenge. Right?

So when I first started in my position, it was like, it's law. It's the legal academy. So it's like suit, tie, slacks, sharp. And if anybody knows me, that's just not me. Right? I do wear suits. I own suits, but I'm more of like hoodies. I got my headphones in. But I don't think that this idea of professionalism, I think we've taken it out of context. I don't think we necessarily need to redefine it. I think we need to really understand what it means, and it's more the ability for someone to do the job that they were assigned to do as opposed to how they show up in terms of physical appearance. We get professional and appropriate mixed up a lot.

Andrea G. Tatum: Ooh.

Oliver W. Colbert: A lot of that can be attributed to white supremacy and white norms in this space.

Andrea G. Tatum: There it is. I do a whole talk on that professionalism, and it's rooted in white supremacy and all the things that... Ugh. Yeah. Continue, please.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. So one thing that was really big for me was, earlier... Was it this year? I feel like it was this year, January, I want to say it was. I posted on LinkedIn. I was on my block. I'm originally from Flatbush, Brooklyn. A lot of my friends and stuff still live out there. So I was on my block in Flatbush, Brooklyn, and I had a durag. I had this Nike hoodie on. And I think I had black or gray pants, one of those gray sweatpants or whatever, like black or gray sweatpants on, and I was standing in front of my building and I was about to walk to the store with my sister. And I asked her, I was like, "Hey, take a picture of me in front of the building. I want to post it on LinkedIn." And she was like, "LinkedIn? Seriously? Looking like that?" I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

So I take this picture and I post it and the caption is... I talk about, I am an Associate Director of Admissions and Diversity Initiatives. I am a doctoral student studying how American education system colonizes Black people's language, basically. Right? And so, these are things that I'm putting in the caption, and then I say, almost like, "I do this with a durag." I know I don't appear this way in this photo. And I think that I said, "Authentic is the new professional." That was the hashtag of it.

And I did not expect it, but it ended up going, what we know as, viral on LinkedIn. And I was really excited about that because I felt like I was... I didn't know how I was feeling resonated with so many people where you kind of feel like, "Bruh, I can walk into a spot looking how I look, and your preconceived notions of me are from your issues. It has nothing to do with who I actually am."

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes.

Oliver W. Colbert: And so, with that, it was just like, I am who I am regardless of how I dress or how I decide to show up to a place or how I speak. I say "bruh". I say, "No, you ain't about to do that." I use ain't. I use words that are like that, but what does that mean? I don't think that that's a valid measurement of somebody's intelligence or ability because we have different dialects. We have different ways of presenting ourselves. Professional looks different in different countries, but we have become accustomed to the white norms that make it a standard of professionalism. And I really don't agree with that. Right?

And so, once I understood that about myself and I understood where I come from and made that promise to myself to prioritize being true to me, it became easier. And so, now, one of the, I guess, active ways that I do that is when I show up to work. It's not in a suit and tie. I come comfortable. I wear my sneakers. I got my Jordans. I try to wear a different pair every day. Not a different pair of Jordans, but I love...

Andrea G. Tatum: [clears throat, audible laughter] Sneakerhead.

Oliver W. Colbert: I like sneakers. I like sneakers. So they could be the regular, like Nike Forces. They could be Air Maxes. They could be Dunks, or whatever. Yeah. It's a way that I express myself. And what I noticed as I started doing that and I put the shoes to the side or I leave them under my desk in my office and I have my suit jacket hooked up on my hanger behind my door just in case I have to go to a meeting where I understand I have to come present myself in a certain way, then... What I noticed when I started wearing sneakers and stuff like that, people would stop me, "Oh, those are nice sneakers. Those are nice sneakers."

And one time, the high... I don't want to say the position, but the higher-up in the law school, he stopped me. He was just like, "My son bought me a pair of Jordans." And he's a middle-aged white dude. He's like, "I don't think I'm ever going to wear them. I don't think I'm ever going to wear them." And I was like, "Try them. Try them out." And then, so I was off. I think it was two weeks later, I was off, and I get an email and he's in his office with the Jordans on.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes!!!

Oliver W. Colbert: It's just like this... Yeah. It's a middle-aged white dude, and he's like, "Yo, I gave them a shot." And they were some really limited edition Jordan 1s. I don't even think he understood what he had going on.

Andrea G. Tatum: He didn't even know. He didn't even know.

Oliver W. Colbert: I was like, "Yo, that's what's up." And for me, that was something affirming for me, where it was just like, yo, when you decide to liberate yourself, you could give others the opportunity or the idea that they can liberate themselves as well and you don't have to continue walking around in this, I want to say, limiting capacity of just like, you have this structure. You feel me?

Andrea G. Tatum: Mm-hmm.

Oliver W. Colbert: This box almost, or you have to show up like this because this is a professional workspace. Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: I mean, even women, Black women and hair. I mean, the fact that there's a whole CROWN Act that's still-

Oliver W. Colbert: You took the words right out of my mouth.

Andrea G. Tatum: ... going through the system for women, for all people of color, but we know, especially Black women and Black men, to come... When I decided to loc my hair four or five years ago, the reason I hadn't done it sooner was for everything that you just talked about. Because I was told that the only way I was going to be able to make it and be successful was that I continued to perm my hair, add chemicals to my hair, straighten it, because that was the standard of professionalism that had been put on Black women that we needed to show up.

I started to be like, "Okay." I cut all my hair off, I went natural, and then I started to... I love makeup. Makeup is my artistry, and I don't do it nearly as much as I used to probably 5, 10 years ago. But you know what? I would show up with purple lipstick, eyeshadow, all the things, because it's what made me feel good. It was the authentic version of who I wanted to be, and I didn't care anymore. I've hit a certain point in my career where I was like, "You're going to get this version of me. You don't like it? Your loss, not mine."

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I 100% love that. Man, you hit the nail right on the head. The idea that we have to pass legislation for hair that naturally grows out of somebody's head is ridiculous, to say like, “Yo, you can't discriminate on people based on what grows out of their head naturally.”

Andrea G. Tatum: It's wild.

Oliver W. Colbert: It's ridiculous.

Andrea G. Tatum: Wild.

Oliver W. Colbert: It's really ridiculous.

Andrea G. Tatum: It's wild.

Oliver W. Colbert: But I love how you put that. I love that you move like that, and it's so empowering to people when you do that. And I'm sure... We have a common friend, Professor Allen, Renee Allen. She shows up to class, and sometimes she'll have her sneakers on. And I know, when students see her, it's like, "Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah."

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes.

Oliver W. Colbert: You just see somebody who's breaking down or challenging what everybody understands but nobody says. Right? That this structure around us is, it's nonsense. It's nonsense. And we really have to... I think there's a conversation that needs to be had about professionalism and authenticity and the ways in which... or the way we act for authenticity, for people to show up as their authentic selves and what that means.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. There's so much here, and I could literally spend hours talking to you because, one, you just feel like family. And so, I think-

Oliver W. Colbert: Oh, thank you.

Andrea G. Tatum: ... this is the ease of the conversation, but also just, you have so much to share and I appreciate all of the transparency and realness and just what you bring. But we got to wrap this thing up. And so, I always like to end my sessions with something a little lighthearted. So with that being said, if there was a musical or a biopic about your life, one, who would play you and, two, what would it be called?

Oliver W. Colbert: So... can I make it an animated film?

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah.

Oliver W. Colbert: Because I can't think of anybody who I would be like, "Oh, this person could play me." So I'll make it an animated film, and the voiceover would be some up-and-coming actor. I have no idea who it is, but somebody to give them an opportunity, the first shot. I would want that to be their first shot. And the name of it would be “I Don't Know Either and It's Okay”.

Andrea G. Tatum: Mm. I love that.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: “I Don't Know Either and It's Okay”.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: That's dope.

Oliver W. Colbert: I don't know if you want context behind that, but I'm just-

Andrea G. Tatum: I do. Yes.[audible laughter]

Oliver W. Colbert: [audible laughter] Yeah. Okay.

Andrea G. Tatum: Of course.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I went through a lot of my life not knowing what was the next step, how things were going to unfold for me, what was my next position going to be. And I just kept stepping, kept moving, kept doing what I felt was right in my spirit and I made mistakes and I ended up somewhere where I am now. I'm really happy about it, but I don't know if I’d ever been there if I did not take the steps that I took just blindly, sometimes walking by faith.

And so, in that journey, there's people who are going to ask you, who are going to see you moving, and be like, "Hey, what are you doing? Where are you going? You know what the end goal is? Maybe. I don't know, but it's okay”. And also, people have come to me and said like, "I'm lost," and "How do you solve this problem?" or "Can you talk about this?" And sometimes, I'll tell them like, "I don't know, and it's okay. It's really okay." And I feel like, a lot of times, we need to hear that, especially college students and kids. I don't want to call them kids, but young adults who are navigating life. It's okay to be confused. A lot of adults have no idea what the fuck they're doing either, and it's perfectly fine,

Andrea G. Tatum: Hello.

Oliver W. Colbert: ... and you're going to be okay. I would say, the best thing to do is just keep moving forward and keep being true to yourself and make decisions that make you happy. And when the mistakes come, just know that that's a growing pain and keep moving on.

Andrea G. Tatum: Keep moving on. I love it.

Oliver W. Colbert: Yeah.

Andrea G. Tatum: That is a perfect note to end on. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being a part of this. I'll be dropping all of his information, so you'll be able to find it there. And thank you all again so much for tuning in, and I hope you all enjoyed this episode.

Oliver W. Colbert: Thank you.

Andrea G. Tatum: I hope you all enjoyed this episode of DEI Career Conversations. My goal is to help create more transparency about what it really means to work in diversity, equity, and inclusion while helping experienced professionals gain clarity about how their passion, skills, and experience can make a real impact. To learn more, visit deicareer.com. Don't forget, subscribe to this channel, like the video, and share it with your friends. We'll see you next time.