Transcript:

Andrea G. Tatum: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host, Andrea G. Tatum. On this episode, I sat down with Cornell Verdeja-Woodson to talk all about his journey from academia to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And he told us a little bit about what it looks like in a day in the life of the Director of DEIB for Headspace.

Cornell is also the CEO/Founder of Brave Trainings, which is a boutique consulting firm based in the Bay Area. We covered a lot and we laughed a lot in this episode. So I hope you enjoy! Let's get into it.

Andrea G. Tatum: I am so excited! I'm so excited to have my friend here with us today, Mr. Cornell Verdeja-Woodson. Cornell, you have got this amazing resume. You have done so much great work in the space around DEI. But tell us a little bit about your journey and how did you end up in the role that you are in today?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah, I never thought -  When you think about what you want to be in life, diversity professional was never one of those things. I wanted to be a fireman at one point when I was a kid, but I knew that I always wanted to change the world. My initial profession was lawyer. And I remember in middle school, being taught that lawyers have to read a lot—and I hated reading back then—so I was like, “Nope, not doing that.” And so then it shifts to being a doctor. I really was fascinated about medicine. And so when I was in college, I was a pre-med major. My goal was to become an OB-GYN because I wanted to change the way the medical industry treated women and their healthcare. So I'm the oldest of five—single mom—and so, hearing about her experiences as a woman, going to see her doctor, really motivated me to want to change that, to make sure that no other women experience the things that she experienced.

And then failed organic chemistry miserably—straight F. After studying, buying extra books, I was like, "Okay, so medicine is not it for me." So it required me to really sit back and reflect. At the end of the day, “What is it that you want to be doing? What's the theme in what you want to give to the world?” It was about changing the world. It was about making it better than it was now. And that's always been the theme. And I think that's what led me then to higher education. I got a Master's in higher ed. I taught 9th through 12th grade English through Teaching for America in Atlanta, Georgia for two years. And then went back and got a Master's and was in higher ed for about five years.

It was at NYU where I started doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work and building out curriculum, and educating and consulting with people. And it just really take it from there. About three years ago, I transitioned from higher ed into corporate space and moved to California because I realized that higher ed just wasn't moving at a pace that I felt comfortable with personally, that we could move faster, but they were choosing not to. And I had more to give and I felt like the corporate space was willing to take what I was giving. Now, we all know there's still things to do here, but we moving faster than some other industries, right? So I made the transition. I worked at a company called Looker. It was my first role. And then that company was bought by Google, worked there for about a year, and then found the role at Headspace now. Really, really enjoying it.

Andrea G. Tatum: And so it was while you were at Looker that I first started to really be like, "Who's this Cornell person?" because I was at Tableau and we were in similar roles and at competing organizations. I'm going to tell you the truth. I was looking at Looker to see what it was that you all were doing in this space because I think you and I both were kind of coming at a time where, similar to now, we were definitely seeing an influx of DEI roles and people and organizations starting to really be committed to it.

And so I was so excited because, even though I didn't know you yet, I was like, “This is going to be my friend and this is going to be my mentor. And I want to learn from him” because here we are at these organizations that care so much about data. How do we make sure that we are infusing that passion? And I was constantly watching your LinkedIn to see what's he posting about. What are we talking about?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: I never knew that.

Andrea G. Tatum: I know. I hadn't told you. I'm going to tell the whole world at the same time. And it was true. It's this challenge both between what does DEI look like when you're trying to do it internally and then also, how does it show up externally as well?

And one of the things I often tell people, and it's so funny that I'm saying I was watching it, because the reality is probably half of what you posted was a small portion of what you were actually working on day in and day out. And so I'd love to know, tell me a little bit about a day in the life for you at Headspace. What does it look like in this role and what are you focused on achieving?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah, it's a really good question. One of the things I always tell people is that when you're a DEI professional, my approach to it  is that I'm a super influencer. I am an internal consultant. Because I don't own any of the verticals that have to be influenced, right? So one of our main, usually every organization, when they think about diversity, they think about hiring more people who are not white and male and cisgender. So I don't own talent acquisition. I influence, I support, I consult with and help to provide DEI expertise into how we diversify our workforce. Same thing with our marketing, same thing with our products, same thing with people engagement. I own none of those things. So I have to be ready to be in different meetings across the business, helping to provide that diversity lens. So my day in the life is back to back to back to back meetings. [audible laughter]

Quite frankly, what I love about it is that I can get a sense of the company's commitment to it by how packed my schedule is. In my opinion, because what it means is that people are inviting me to those meetings, right? I'm not breaking in doors to have to necessarily say, "Yo, I need to be in this." But I'm at a place. And initially, yes. Initially, I had to sort of say, "Hey, I need to be there." But the fact that now ongoing projects come and go, initiatives come and go. But as new ones pop up, are people now thinking to add me into the conversation? And the answer has been yes. And that's how I know that I've had an influence over the organization because they go, "Oh, Cornell should be here. DEI should be here."

And so, it's lots of meetings, lots of consulting, lots of coaching, asking people, "So what does diversity look like in this space for you? What are some of our limitations? Who haven't we thought of in this moment when it comes to this particular project or decision that we have to make?"

And then it's also listening to the employees. A lot of times the employees come directly to me before they go to their manager, before they go to HR, before they go to anybody else. They come to me. They don't necessarily want me to fix anything. They just want someone to hear them and to feel validated. So I know all the tea! I know all the secrets! I know what so and so said that they thought they said in private, what is now on my desk. So I know all the things. And I'm in the business and people say certain things like, no, I know what actually happened there. And so it allows me to really kind of bring things together while also keeping people's anonymity, but to just know certain things. So lots of meetings, lots of supporting and lots of educating, lots of it.

Andrea G. Tatum: You said so much. And I couldn't agree more because you talked about influence. And I talk about that a lot as a key skill. I get asked often, "What are the skills, if I'm thinking about getting into DEI?" And I would say influence comes up pretty much with every practitioner that I talk to. And you've got to be able to influence at the highest level and across your individual contributors, your middle managers, everybody. You need to be able to do that.

And one of the things I talk about, and you just said, you've got people inviting you versus having to bust down doors. And I think a big part of that is relationship-building. Can you talk to me a little bit about what skills do you use that help you build those relationships with people so that they trust you to invite you in?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Absolutely. I think a lot of it is asking a lot of questions. So it's very much a coaching skill. And I had to learn this because I was not always this good at it. But going in to say, "Can you tell me a little bit more about what you do and what your goals are for your work?" And then to say, "Oh, have you thought of..." and ask and create a brain session moment where they get to help to collectively come together and think about what does diversity look like in this space—and it's sharing data. So knowing how to interpret data, knowing what to look at depending on the area of the business, and to be able to provide to them data that helps to make the pitch that you're trying to make, solidify for them because they're seeing the data. So I think data is really critical, but it's just being willing to ask questions and learn about what they're doing.

Because at the end of the day, this is people work. You are dealing with people's emotions. You're dealing with people's egos. You're dealing with people. All that stuff—their trauma. All those things. And so appealing to them by asking, "I'm interested in learning more about your area." So when I go to work with the sales people, "Tell me about our sales process. What's our sales flow?" And they will tell you everything. "Oh, yes. So our client goes..." I go, "Ooh, awesome." And so now I'm interested in them and I see DEI there. I say, "I think we can do something here. What do you think about that?" And now it's this collective piece. So it's this knowing how to identify where diversity, equity, and inclusion can fit in data and just an inquisitive mind and a coaching lens, I think is really critical for people in this role.

Andrea G. Tatum: And it's funny—not funny—but people are always like, "Do I need to do more unconscious bias training? Do I need to do that?" And everything that you just talked about. The skills, you're influenced by those foundations of DEI so that you have the ability to identify the opportunities that exist within the organization to infuse that. And that's what I just kind of heard you say, which I really love, which is, we have the data, you've got the relationship. Now, let's think about what are the things that are going to help us to move the needle and really being able to listen deeply to people and identify those key things is a hard but amazing skill to be able to do.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Absolutely. And I think another piece too is also the knowledge, right? I think there are some folks who come into this role and they were put into this role because they were a recruiter who helped to increase people of color at a company or they were something and they're just really passionate about it. But I also think that you have to be able to educate, right? Because if you're constantly relying on folks externally to come in and do the educating for you, what happens to the day-to-day when someone has a question or something happens, you can't just, "Hey, hold on for a second, let me get an external consultant to come in here and teach you this." I do think it's really critical for people to be able to coach and teach people the basics.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes, those foundations. And I love that. And that's exactly the way I talk to people, is it's really this combination of those useful skills and then being able to figure out, “How do I bring someone along and understand those foundational things that drive that change?”

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Absolutely.

Andrea G. Tatum: So tell me a little bit, because you just said your day-to-day is meetings, influencing. Tell me a little bit about the structure of your team because so often, I think, what happens in different organizations is they bring one person in and they go, "All right, we did it. We've got our diversity person for a 25,000-person company. We're good to go, right?"

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Right.

Andrea G. Tatum: But the reality is, this is a very hard job for one person to do. I'd love to know a little bit about how do you get the work done day-to-day with your colleagues and your teammate who are focused on DEI specifically?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah. Right now, I am a team of two. So I have one person who reports in to me. But that was different about maybe six, seven months ago. I was a team of one. We were a smaller company at that time, but even at 300 and something people, I needed another headcount. And now we're at 1,200 with the merger that we just went through with a company called Ginger. And so we have two people, but we need more people. And so not to mention we're a global company. So we also have a team in the UK, which has a different lens on DEI than the one that is a very US-based approach. So we got to localize that strategy there and localize those teachings and things as well.

So in terms of how we kind of split up work, her and I really sit down and kind of look through all the things that we need to get done. What have we committed to? And what's the parking lot of things that need to get done, let me start there. What's the parking lot? And then what are the things that are like, “We absolutely need to focus on this right now and pull three or four of those things over.” And then we split that up between her and I. So she may take two projects and I take two projects. But then, when it comes to the actual consulting up with our different senior leaders, we work functionally. So we have about six, seven functions. So we have six or seven executive team leaders and we split that team up. She's responsible for consulting for her half and I consult for my half. So that way both of us are not always in the same place. We're splitting the team up so that we can be as many places as possible.

Andrea G. Tatum: No, I love that. Thank you for sharing because I think it's really important for people to think about what does that day-to-day look like? How do you get it all done? It is so much work to do. One, I mean, changing from one person to two person is great, but then you just said the company grew to 1,200 people, so I'm going to send you all extra love.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yes, because we need it, because her and I are both tired. The other day we were in a one-on-one and you got to see it. I was like, "Girl, log off for the day and go spend some time for yourself." This work will be here when we get back.

Andrea G. Tatum: Well, let's talk about that. So you work at Headspace. How do you utilize something like a Headspace or other tools to help you with self-care? Because to your point, the work is exhausting and you care about the people that you're doing this work for. So how do you, Cornell, take care of yourself? Do you use Headspace or other tools?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah. Unapologetic prioritization of my time and boundaries. I get up at 6:30. From 7:00 to 10:00 AM is Cornell time. So I come into this office, I close my door, I light an incense. I set my intentions for the day. What is it that I need from the universe today in order to really be my best self? Whether that's healing, whether that's awareness, whether that's productivity, whether that's energy. Whatever that may be, I acknowledge what it is that I need for that day.

And then I meditate. And so I sit through maybe a 10-minute meditation, which I never thought I would be able to sit through that long of a meditation, but it totally works. And I sit on my couch back here—it's usually cleaner. And I sit back on the couch and I meditate and I really get grounded in the space. And I may journal. I don't always journal, but I may journal. Depending on what's really on my mind, I may get it out of my head. And that time is really for me before I come and sit down at this desk and dive into everything else. I spend that time with myself, check in with myself to really make sure that I am ready for the day.

Andrea G. Tatum: That is so important. I hope others listening realize that value of taking time for yourself. It's something I'm working on. It's something I'm constantly working on because it's hard to find that balance. And so I love your routine. I have tried to get into meditation, but I think I need to tap into some more resources. So I'm going to take you up on trying that.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Right, good, good, good.

Andrea G. Tatum: I’m trying that. So I want to transition to talk a little bit about your pivot into corporate DEI. And you mentioned that you actually started really after deciding it wasn't going into law or being a doctor. I have to tell you, I also thought I was going to have this amazing career in marketing and business. And there was this statistics class that I was going to have to take to get the business degree and I was like, "Nah, I ain’t taking statistics." Because I hate math. I hate math with a passion and yet, I tell people all the time I have been transformed. I love data. I love talking about numbers now. And I never thought I would be that person, but I get it, I was just like, "I'm a opt out of anything."

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: And now I love reading. I didn't want to become a lawyer because I didn't want to do any reading. And now I buy books, my husband cusses me out, "If you bring one more book in this house that you have not read in the next three months..."

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. My books, I have a stack next to me here, there.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: It's a problem.

Andrea G. Tatum: But you know what, it's important in this work to stay informed, to do your own research, to take an opportunity to really look at different stories that are being told, different approaches to this work that people take. And so yes, I do advocate for doing a lot of reading, research. Use books. Use articles like Harvard Business Review. Dig into all of those research companies like McKinsey and Catalyst and…

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Deloitte, yes.

Andrea G. Tatum: Deloitte.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yes, yes.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. So those are the types of things, so thank you for highlighting the fact. We have to constantly be in a state of educating ourselves and we just listed off a few really great resources. So bonus content for the people. 

So the transition from academia into this. Tell me a little bit about what made you want to make that jump, in addition to maybe the lack of resources. How did you see yourself being able to do it? And then how did you help Looker, that was the first place you went, is that correct?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yup.

Andrea G. Tatum: How did you help them understand the skills that you had gained, how they would apply in the role there at Looker, since it was such a different kind of industry?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: For sure. I think for me, there were multiple motivations for why I made the transition and just began preparing myself for what that would look like. It was the resources. It was the attention. It was the slowness of the movement. But to be quite honest, it was also about building generational wealth. Higher ed does not pay the salaries that tech and corporates pay and I was tired of being broke. So in all honesty, that was also a big part of it, right? And also wanting to get out here to California. I've always wanted to be in California and the university just felt a great opportunity to make that happen.

In terms of preparing myself, I knew that I had to learn a whole another set of lingo that I had never used before. So prior, a year before I made the switch, I had actually moved, gotten a job in HR at Cornell University. So I started just being in the field, learning the language, learning the type of things that come up. I took Cornell's eCornell course on HR essentials. So I was learning. I was in their HR Master's program. So I had taken classes. So I was just learning the jargon and then making the connection between what I know around diversity and how that fits into that space.

So that took about two years to really just prepare myself for that. Then when it came time to really start applying, that's where I started using that language, using that jargon, translating what I've done in higher ed and then, literally making the one-to-one match to this is what this is in your space. So it was being able to tell my narrative. This is where storytelling really is important. That's another skill that I think is critical for people in this role, is to be able to tell that story. Because depending on the recruiter, they're looking for the perfect cookie-cutter thing. If this, then that. And this is the same thing I'm teaching recruiters now. Sometimes they don't always look like that. If it quacks like a duck, it may not be a duck sometimes. It could be a platypus. [audible laughter}

So we bring in something else. I know I'm a fool! Are you open to the possibilities of the skill sets that could really do well here? And I had to be able to tell that story in order to be able to get in. I also think that the recruiter who was leading that effort, also was very open to what that could look like. I think it's a mix. It's my ability to tell the story, but it's also the recruiter being open that it may not always look this way, if that makes sense.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes, yes. I love that. And that's one of the things though. DEICareer.com—if you're tuning in, that is where I host all of the DEI Career coaching to help aspiring professionals gain clarity about getting into this path and that's why I'm really passionate about having these conversations with current professionals. And one of the services that I offer is around a resume audit. What I often explain to people is that first step is narrow down what you are even going to be updating your resume for. You can't update a resume to try to sell you for every single job within DEI. So I really like to help people start off by gaining clarity about which jobs are a good fit. And you go through a process, then it's like, okay, now if you want to update your resume. So I really appreciate that you said you took some time to really kind of figure out how does this apply? How does this thing?

 And like you said, it's that line-by-line approach to really being able to say, "What skills do I have?" So I transitioned out of nonprofits in the arts, into tech, before I even deeply got into having a DEI role. And I had to figure out. I was using ticketing systems called Tessitura—Tessitura's a CRM. And once I actually figured out what the heck a CRM was and I was like, "Oh, like Salesforce." So then I had language. I didn't know that having worked in the nonprofit world for so long.

And I think that was one of my biggest challenges was moving past my fear of like, "Oh, what if there's too many tools? What if there's too many things that I don't know about because I have a different set of experience?" But once I started to connect the dots, I was like, this ticketing system is a CRM and Salesforce is a huge deal to people. I got that. I know how to talk about it. So taking that time to really assess the skills that organizations are asking for and to your point, make it plain for the person who's reading the resume because they're not usually going to do the work to try to connect the dots themselves.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: And I think the other thing, too—and I'm sure people know this regardless of what industry you're in—is that the resume or the submitting your job application isn't the only thing that's going to get you, particularly in tech, right? You've got to get that internal referral. I actually hate that that is the thing, but it is the nature of the beast at this moment, that you've got to get the networking in.

So on top of learning and educating myself and preparing myself from an educational standpoint, I was also interacting with people in tech. Many of my friends had moved into tech, so they were helping me get connected. So that was really critical. In fact, my first job that I got in tech was from a referral from a friend of mine. It really matters. And then once you're in, you're in. This doesn't matter [inaudible 00:26:29] but you got to do the networking as well.

Andrea G. Tatum: That's so important. It's something that I offer as a part of the services is I try to help people meet other folks, set up informational sessions, have a chance just to chat, to learn about what does DEI look like in these different organizations, different industries. What does it look like? So I love that as a tip and highly recommend folks spend the time networking. Even like you said, I think we spent time just becoming friends just via LinkedIn before we ever had a real conversation.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Absolutely.

Andrea G. Tatum: And I would say I count Cornell among my network of very close-knit DEI practitioners who I know I can call them for anything. "Hey, can you look at this? Can I ask you this question? How are you feeling about this?" And we also know when to check in on each other.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: I was literally getting ready to say that. I said, look, you checked in on me when I had my moment.

Andrea G. Tatum: It is. And so it's important to build the network to get in. And then it's important to build those relationships once you are in as well, because you need a support system inside of this work. For sure.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: That's right. That's right.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. And so the one last skill I want to ask you about that I originally talked to you about like, "Hey, come on. I want to talk about this." Is your ability to make change within an organization. And you talked about some skills that you had built up while you were in academia and one of them was organizational change. Can you talk a little bit about what does that mean to you and how do you apply it in your day-to-day work now?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah. I think what it means is really understanding how change happens. Because change is dealing with people. It's dealing with people's emotions, and their attitudes towards change, and their commitment to what things were. And that's all that we do. We're coming in and saying, "Hey, the way we used to do things actually sometimes can be sexist, homophobic, and racist. And so if this is not who we are, we've got to change how we do things from a systematic standpoint in order to make the change that we all want to see, right?"

And so understanding the emotions that you're going to come up against helps you to better prepare going in to be able to address it. One of the things that I always get from people, who have sat through a training of mine, is that they felt that while they struggled with hearing some of the things that I was saying, they felt like they were in a space where we could talk it out. Because they genuinely wanted to understand. It was uncomfortable for them, but they wanted to. And I prepare for that. I go into a conversation knowing that this is going to rock some people's feathers, but this is going to be a space for us to unpack it and really do something great with it.

So understanding how that change happens from a systemic standpoint, from an interpersonal standpoint is really, really important. Let's say, for example, I'm noticing that there is a gap between people of color and white people being promoted. I'm going to begin to dive deep into that by one, what's happening. So there's our data skill. There's our ability to analyze data. And then my investigative standpoint, what's happening, let me look at performance evaluation data. Does that data connect in some way?

And then begin to take that information to the powers that be to go, "Here's what I found. Here's my hypothesis." So it's not based on Cornell's emotion. It's not based on what I think is happening. I had a thought and then I went and found data that supports what I'm thinking. Here's my hypothesis. Here's the plan. And so I think all of that really helps change happen a lot better. It doesn't go fast just because you come ready with all that. But it makes at least that conversation and the openness of the conversation a little bit easier for folks.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. And then I assume you can tap into skills like project management to figure out now that we have a plan, how do you actually execute on that?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Exactly. Who are the stakeholders that I need to bring in? Because one of the things I cannot stand—anytime I'm in an organization that doesn't do strategic planning well. So they expect you to have your strategic plan in three days. And I go, "Wait a minute. I haven't had a chance to consult with my other stakeholders, who ultimately they're the ones who have to do this work in order for this to happen." So I can't just say we're going to increase non-white folks in the workplace to 40% when I don't know that my talent acquisition even has to bandwidth to be able to do that. What's on their plate?

And so I think it's really, really critical that in order to make the change, you've got to bring people along, help them understand the “why,” help them understand their role in it, what we actually need from them, and do that educating so that we can bring people along and not drag people along. But then at the same time, sometimes you got to drag people along, but there's that.

Andrea G. Tatum: Sometimes you just got to drag.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: [audible laugh]Sometimes you gotta drag them. Just take them by the ankle and just keep going.

Andrea G. Tatum: Let us go! Come with us! And sometimes people will just naturally say, "Oh, okay. I guess, everybody, this is where we're going." But I think that goes back to the ability to influence.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: For sure.

Andrea G. Tatum: Like you said at the very start. How do I get you to a point where you trust me enough that I can drag you along? Come on, you trust me because I'm not dragging you because you don't. Just trust me. We going to get there.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: And let's be honest. Let's think about some of the reasons why people—a lot of times—people don't want to come along because they feel that they are the enemy in this situation around DEI, right? And then there's sometimes the people who are just homophobic, racist, we're not talking about them. We're talking about the people who are usually in the middle, who may not be moving. But there's some fear there. And once we can get through the fear and begin to trust each other, that I'm not out to get you, I'm out to actually work with you, and even when you make a mistake, we going to figure it out. As long as you're open to being educated and to learning, we're good. Mistakes are going to happen and we can keep moving forward. That work is so critical in order to get there. It's a part of what my dissertation is on.

Andrea G. Tatum: Oh, say more. Say more dissertation.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: I know. So my dissertation is on the motivation of white heterosexual cis-gendered men to engage in DEI efforts. There's a lot of research out there on why white men do not engage, and we know that. I'm taking an asset-based approach to understand. There are white men out there who do do this. We don't know about them, which I actually appreciate because they're not out there flaunting it, right? But there are white men who are very engaged. What is it that got you from there to there?

And even already from the little bit that I'm reading, it's about that personal connection. It's about that sense of, "I no longer feared making the mistake because somebody helped me understand that I'm not my mistakes, but if I'm willing to learn, then that's what makes me a good advocate in the space." So it's those, what is the magic sauce, if you will, that we can maybe replicate for the folks who are in the middle. Again, I'm not talking about the people who are just outright racist and sexist and homophobic. The people who are like, "I want to. I'm scared." And how do we begin to get them over that hump to get them to become an advocate?

Andrea G. Tatum: You said the keyword, it's fear. That is oftentimes what I hear when I ask myself, “Why does this feel hard?” That I have to acknowledge people's fear. Because as a black woman, this has been my life. I'm living it. I'm fully aware. But there's some people who this still feels so new and daunting. And I mean, I know that this is something you speak a lot about, but there's that fear of that cancel culture. There's that fear of, “I can't say the wrong thing. Am I going to lose my job?” And it's like, there's accountability that needs to happen and you need to learn how to be accountable if you do mess up. Because you will. Guess what? I'm in this work, I mess up.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Hello? Yes. I messed up yesterday. Right? But there's a willingness to own that and to learn and to do better as I keep going.

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely. I cannot wait ‘til we get to all celebrate Dr. Cornell.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Look, me too. [audible laughter] Look. I got one more year.

Andrea G. Tatum: Dr. Cornell is in the house. I love it. This has been so fun. I mean, from the first time we ever got to sit down and chat, I said, I cannot wait to have you on a podcast so that people get to hear just us have our own conversation. So y'all got a chance to just sit in on me and Cornell chatting it up.

And so as you know, I love theater. I love all things biopics. I love musicals. And so my final question to you to end on a light note is, if there was a biopic or a musical about Cornell's life, what would it be called and who would you have play you, if you could select?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Oh, snap was this in the pre-written? Oh, I don't know. Oh my goodness! What would it be called and who would play me? Lord have mercy. Michael B. Jordan would play me because he just got body. So there's that. So I want them to see me like that. Wow! What would it be called? I have no idea. I have no idea. That's such a great question. I have no idea. One of my favorite sayings is like, “Let's unpack that.” And actually I used to have a podcast called Let's Unpack That. And so maybe it would be that, “Let's Unpack That: The Life and Story of Cornell Verdeja-Woodson.”

Andrea G. Tatum: I love that because it's one of my favorite sayings, too. And there's always so much to unpack. We are multifaceted, complicated people. That is what a good musical about—unpacking Cornell's life. I'm here for it.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: For it. I love it. I absolutely love that question. That's a great one!

Andrea G. Tatum: Well, my friend again, I am so appreciative of your time, of the great ideas and information that you are sharing with those people who are here and listening. Where can people find you?

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn as Cornell Verdeja-Woodson. I'm on Instagram @itsmecornell. And you also find me on my website, www.bravetrainings.com.

Andrea G. Tatum: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Cornell Verdeja-Woodson: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Andrea G. Tatum: I hope you all enjoyed this episode of DEI Career Conversation. My goal is to help create more transparency about what it really means to work in diversity, equity, and inclusion while helping experienced professionals gain clarity about how their passion, skills, and experience can make a real impact. To learn more, visit deicareer.com. Don't forget, subscribe to this channel, like the video and share it with your friends. We'll see you next time!